Personal opinion only and no offense meant to any of the hardworking staff.
I am feeling frustrated with how the menus have gone recently.
Webmin 2.600-1
Theme 26.10
Webmin used to make sense, you could click either Webmin or Dashboard and it took you back the the start page. And why not?
But now, clicking Webmin only works if I am already on the start page (dashboard).
Other than that it’s all good.
Virtualmin 2.520
The Virtualmin menu has different issues.
The Webmin button does seem to work from anywhere - the behaviour I would like in Webmin standalone.
The Virtualmin menu itself is now only one menu item away from needing scrolling - it already has a scroll bar, my monitor is 24" 3840 x 2160, not huge, but not small either.
This is because both Create Sub-Server and Create Alias Server have now got their own menu line rather than being options under Create a server.
Then near the bottom we have List Virtual servers - which is already covered by the Virtualmin tab at the top and Dashboard which is already covered by the Webmin tab at the top. Or should be - I realise that what makes sense for me can be different for other people.
Why?
There is also an issue I raised recently that Theme Configuration is only accessed by clicking an icon, so the people that need help to find the things I mentioned above are supposed to be clever enough to know to stop wasting time reading menus because of an icon. Why not a bunch of unlabelled icons that we could mouse-over, it would save a lot of menu space.
Theme Configuration could also be placed in Webmin > Webmin Themes along side Change, Install, Delete and Export. Just for dummies like me.
I also enjoy turning rounded corners off to open the screen a bit, thanks for having that as an option.
Yes, there are always problems with a lack of intuitive design. There appears to be no class a programmer can take to learn this ability, and it is something of an art.
Of course, the ideal is voice-recognition, but that has been put to the side for almost fifty years now.
Still, there are some things which ought to be standard, and one of these is mouse-over info. One would think that a good programming language has that built into itself.
I am not sure of the best way to handle this. A good programming director will make sure that there is an individual or group who handles the tweaking necessary to fix these little usability problems, but a small organization may not have that luxury.
My suggestion for all open-source programmers to have a simple interface where users can deposit their Bitcoin contributions toward fixing given problems. I know I’ve always been willing to pay a few shekels to improve a bit of code, and I like the idea of being able to but my money where my mouth is and help the programmer.
This is still possible as an option in Theme Configuration page using “Load default page on navigation switch” option.
Well, because I saw it as an unwanted chain reaction. If I click the switch, like in Virtualmin, I’d expect the navigation menu to reload, nothing else. For example, when some changes are made using the CLI, like creating a new domain.
But I don’t necessarily want or expect the content page to change automatically. What if there’s some unsaved data there?
We have an auto-complete dropdown with suggestions. If you start typing “theme,” you’ll instantly get what you want. Who even searches through the menus anyway? And, how often do you use the “Theme Configuration” page to justify it having its own link? Once or twice, at best? Furthermore, there’s a hotkey to access the “Theme Configuration” page from anywhere in the UI. It’s well documented if you press F1.
So, you just complained about the menu being too long. If we keep adding inessential stuff to the menu, it won’t get shorter. A link to the theme config is one of those things. However, I listened to your suggestion and added a link to the theme configuration page from Webmin pages, like “Webmin ⇾ Webmin Configuration: Webmin Themes,” “Webmin ⇾ Change Language and Theme,” and some others.
That is humongous! For comparison, my current screen is 13" with 1470x956 resolution. And it’s not horrible. Yes, I need to scroll to get to the bottom of the menu in Virtualmin, but so what, and importantly what do you suggest as a solution? GCP or AWS menus also require scrolling.
I’d suggest you be exact and point out exactly what things are lacking, whatever it is you think they are lacking, and also reference best practices! We will definitely consider improving them.
We always welcome constructive critique; it’s great and useful, unlike speaking in general without pointing out specific problems.
The more sophisticated surveillance gets the less I want my computer listening. I don’t use a listening or video device I can’t unplug when I’m not using it.
Did anyone notice that I replied to the Donation Monthly - Virtualmin post, but it also posted down at the end here? I should not have to point out that it is a lack of intuitive design, or just a huge flaw, but I guess I must.
Sure, I could pick it all apart, but I am trying to be gentle in pointing out the problems of software design in general. It is exceedingly rare to find anything really great out there, when all it takes is to go over the usability of the program with a fine-toothed-comb approach.
Sometimes it is just nice for everyone to know that they are not alone in the struggle with software problems. Its just life.
We didn’t build the forum software, and we don’t try to micromanage how it behaves (though we have some custom HTML/CSS and custom plugins to help us with support-related stuff, like we can see who has active Pro licenses, and such). The forum software is Discourse.
I think the way it handles threading is fine. It keeps things moving forward, and you don’t have to try to find the “new” replies spread all through the topic. There is an indicator of who you’re responding to and it links to the comment you are responding to.
But, also, there’s a reason I’m so strict about people staying on topic and why the guidelines cover it multiple times from multiple angles. When people start straying into a bunch of unrelated stuff, it becomes difficult to follow the thread.
This annoys me a tad, I specifically said where to put it, I have never suggested it needs it’s own link on the main menu. Even in the first post where I brought it up.
I brought this up on another forum recently when someone complained that it was hard to keep track of the older stuff. But the truth is, it works well there too. It is a forum purposed with helping ‘advance the software’ and does end up like an unofficial community based ticketing system of sorts.
I didn’t realize @KitchM was referring to threading. But that can be troublesome too. If things stay on topic it isn’t needed. Each topic is a thread. Sub threads can actually be worse. So, the old six of one, half a dozen of the other.
I want to make something clear. Just because a system is set up with proper voice recognition does not in any manner require the user to use that function. I am not clear why anyone would think otherwise, but please be a peace that such is not the case.
Much the same way that proper mouse-over information is available does not force a user to make use of it. It is just there to be of service to those who desire it.
Part of intuitive design is to think of what the other people might wish to have and to provide it in the most obvious and useful manner in their eyes, not in the programmer’s.
You can’t call voice recognition ‘intuitive design’ just because people might like it. That’s feature planning based on user research (not intuitiveness). Intuitive design is about the interaction model, not the input medium.
I believe that is missing the point. There was a lack of a solution to the OP because of a design problem or missing element. Properly designed software does not allow for such.
Voice recognition is not necessarily the solution for the OP’s problem, but was only a comment on the sad state of computer interaction.
If a computer could understand what I want when I ask for it, it would be the most intuitive method of interaction known to mankind.
Design of such a complex program is always evolving. Discussion is part of that evolution. You want VR, nice. But that had nothing to do with this conversation.
If you have a need to be heard (see what I did there?), use the Blus Sky topic.
However, thanks for bringing attention to this thread.
it isn’t needed. Each topic is a thread. Sub threads can actually be worse. So, the old six of one, half a dozen of the other.