Virtualmin UI is really really confusing...

Virtualmin
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Thanks for comments.

I believe I represent your typical average “newbie” Virtualmin user and as I have said already - none of my comments are meant in criticism of what appears to be a very strong product (that I am glad to have found) - only observation. My feedback can either be ignored, partially acknowledged or provide a catalyst for change :wink: I’m not opposed to any of the above! :slight_smile:

Yes I have set up several test accounts (independent domains as independent virtual servers) and have been testing and playing with all of the settings. I’m working on VPS with CentOs7.

I’m approaching this “experiment” from two angles;

  1. As a root administrator wanting to A) set up my server the best it can be (e.g. secure, logical, stable) and B) enable fast and easy / efficient / secure creation of user accounts (virtual domains) by having a “template” etc that can be applied to new accounts (e.g. from WHMCS).

  2. As an enduser with the ability to login to my “cpanel-esque” control panel (because that is what they are used to and therefore expect) to do things like e.g. set up new emails; check spam folder on server; use file manager; login to phpmyadmin; make website backups; use e.g. softaculous and - all the other typical things endusers often want to do.

As for 1) above - I believe I have managed to achieve most of this - I imagine it will get easier over time as I become more familiar with where things are.

As for 2) above - I believe this is a big issue for anyone used to cpanel environment. That is not to say cpanel is the best, or is the most user friendly or whatever - it is just a fact that a lot of users expect a simple GUI and easy to navigate panel that is logical and offers all of the features they need. Most Endusers don’t give a rats about cpanel price changes or Oakley Capital Investments buying them and shoving it right up the webhosts. I do - and that’s why I want to find an alternative.

However, so far - I am hesitant to bring my several hundred clients over from cpanel. I am still exploring Virtualmin in the hope that I can find a way to simplify it a bit.

Maybe I need to hire someone to walk me through customising Virtualmin to make it more simplified… or perhaps there is someone out there currently working on a new skin to make the changeover less painful.

I realise for most seasoned Virtualmin users, newbie cpanel converts are not at all interesting - however - I imagine there are many thousands looking for an alternative webpanel now - and that could bring a really good boost for virtualmin’s income / development.

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Virtual Server / Domains = why not just “User Account” or simply “Account” which is descriptive and IMO a lot clearer than Domain (which is also confusing as a domain is a domain, not a user account).

This one trips people up, too. A Virtual Server is all of those things and inseparable. There is no concept of a user without a website in Virtualmin (well, in Virtualmin Pro we have Reseller Accounts which is sort of that, but with GPL you create a Virtual Server to get a new user, and it also creates a website). That new virtual server (domain owner) can then have other websites (sub-servers), so it’s not a limitation and it doesn’t mean you need a new account per website (though for security purposes it can make sense to do so). Again, it’s a different account model, and would need a pretty big overhaul to change it. This is probably one of the things we would do differently if we were starting over. The original idea was to get a user from “I want a website” to “I have a website” in as few steps as possible (one step, basically, once Virtualmin is running and DNS is delegated). But, the way people want to think about the problem doesn’t match that if they’re coming from other models…and it has some other sort of weird edges that feel funny to people (the directory structure for sub-servers is maybe weird to some, and definitely deeper than people expect).

Webmin access for root / administrator level access. Virtualmin only access for endusers / Accounts / Domains / virtual servers!

You’re still thinking about cPanel/WHM, and it doesn’t make sense when you apply that model to Virtualmin. Virtualmin is not a separate thing. It is a module (well, a bunch of modules and custom UI mode) inside Webmin. There is no such thing as “logging into Virtualmin”…you login to Webmin, which happens to be configured for Virtualmin and have Virtualmin modules available. root logs into Webmin, a Virtualmin domain owner logs into Webmin. The only difference is the privileges their account has.

Moving over from WHM / cPanel feels good, it’s a bit challenging, but overall, I’m finding a lot to like. I hope I’m not coming across as too negative! Just my 2cents worth and what appears to be a very solid panel.

We always welcome feedback, even negative, as long as it is constructive and comes with an open mind. You’re doing fine, and we’re glad to have you in the Virtualmin community.

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“Maybe I need to hire someone to walk me through customising Virtualmin to make it more simplified…”

Have you logged in as a domain owner user (a virtual server account)? The interface your customers see is vastly simpler than what the root user sees, and is wholly configurable. The default is pretty restrictive, and only has the basics, I think…stuff like creating email addresses and aliases, managing databases (even that might not be on by default, but can be), looking at logs, and creating new sub-servers (if available to the account). I think most of our users add more to the end-user privileges rather than want to simplify it more.

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I suspect you are correct and it would have paid to stay worded as virtual hosts rather than Virtual Server.
As posted multiple, I can see the ambiguity.

As there is no conflict of use of a commercial entity logo or trademark I fail to see why the wheel had to be reinvented.

They could even go for something like Webhost webserver or such funny enough this problem also exists with Teamspeak they did the exact same blunder.
It’s not a virtual server per se and it’s wrong technically to call it such.

As the points raised here best state (multiple posts).

Yes these server side apps ? Have access and control of such BUT in most cases, they are not configured to set up fresh VPS’s.

Some would say it’s splitting hairs but let that be a lesson to software developers.

Your wording of things IS IMPORTANT crucial in a lot of cases it’s not something you can leave slapdash and expect it to pay the bills.
Just sayiN :wink:

If it sells who cares (if so desired) If it don’t that could be why.

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Yes, I’ve done all that and I must say - while I really love the stability of webmin - it’s never going to work for my clients. I realise webmin will never be cpanel… but look at the new skin that’s just been released for Direct Admin… I know it’s not perfect but… the people over at DA are really capitalising on this crazy cpanel move… Just sayin.

https://custombuild.eu/evolution/traditional.png

(from forum : https://forum.directadmin.com/showthread.php?t=58500&p=299418#post299418)

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Hi Joe

“Have you logged in as a domain owner user (a virtual server account)?”

Yes, I have done so - Perhaps I am missing how to create this “simplified enduser” experience - because after playing with things for a week or so and understanding more about the framework, I still think it’s confusing have webmin, virtualmin and usermin - especially for endusers (my clients).

I’ve tried to do this myself by way of packages and templates, but it’s just too difficult as most of the stuff that’s visible is hardwired to be there for all users.

“The default is pretty restrictive, and only has the basics” - if you mean usermin then yes, but I am not really sure I see the point of usermin.
If you mean virtualmin, I’m afraid I can’t agree - my installation 1st launch of my fictitious user - virtualmin was quite over populated with a lot of options - not to mention Webmin too… I have done my best to simplify by using package / plan templates but still it’s a lot to take in…

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No, not talking about Usermin. Usermin is a webmail client with some other features…not a management tool, at all.

I don’t think we have any desire to do a cPanel skin…I find cPanel pretty ugly (and confusing, honestly). But, I know Virtualmin is also very intimidating for new users, and it’s something we’d like to improve on, and have been working on.

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But, I just double-checked, and I’m still confused about what you’re seeing that seems way too complicated. This is what I see when I login to a virtual server account with the default settings: Virtualmin virtual server user screenshot

There’s almost nothing there, and the Webmin tab is just the basics (user information, password, some basic system stuff like process list and file manager, etc.), and even all of that can be removed with configuration.

But, again, if “must look like cPanel” is the requirement, we’ll never be that.

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Thanks for the reply.

I’ve played with various options and now seem to have lost webmin from the end user screen!! - only “virtualmin” and “dashboard” show up at top -

Here’s what I see

https://i.imgur.com/dchRstk.jpg

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I think “Domain” and “subdomain” are both overloaded with other meanings. I like “Virtual Server” for the reasons already expressed above. As it’s not a new physical or vm server, perhaps “Virtual Site” should be considered?

The number one thing I’d like to see worked on is the search interface. Think windows control panel, or perhaps ccsm (compiz). Both are complex with so many options, it’s not clear where they should live sometimes. Which item is dependant on which? etc. Both of these have a usable search interface to find the setting you are after whether on a top level or far down on a particular tab. Android settings app is another good example.

The “search” in webmin/virtualmin should search the text of any setting or description, then get a list of hits with highlighted text matches, the mostly text layout in webmin/virtualmin become more of a clear win over the gui/icons in other panels. Currently it seems to search the help, but not the settings. Perhaps I’m not using the right terms? At any rate, it often does not get me to where I thought it would. :slight_smile: “User Mail” seems to work, “FPM” is missing a lot of things I think it should find.

This is non-trivial to implement, as is should only show search results from modules that are enabled and that are accessible to the current user. Also the “text” that is searched is located in the language files and varies based on language.

I would prefer that usermin were integrated with webmin/virtualmin on the same menus.

Administrators are sometimes behind a firewall such that getting to port 10000/20000 might not be allowed. I sometimes run webmin under /webmin/ on the parent hosts apache/ssl server. ie: vm.example.com/webmin is the setup for hosts on vm.example.com. The easiest way to set this up is to run the miniserv on localhost and then setup apache proxy to connect to it. It’s a bit dangerous though. If you do an apache edit that causes apache to fail to start, you’ve also lost webmin! Ouch.

Some things I can’t find, like the curren (6.0.7.gpl) FPM code is breaking all FPM pools every hour. I don’t know where the cronjob config is that runs every hour, and I don’t know of a way to disable the current, broken, FPM checks. Logging in as root and chattr +i conf.d/*.conf is my temporary work around.

Overall, virtualmin rocks, and I highly recommend it. It tries hard to put configuration in places that are well thought out, and work well with command line administration along side the web based administration. It follows the distributions existing standards most of the time. I like most of the design decisions.

There are some I don’t like. For example the default “parent virtual server” path is /home/* and thus the username / top virtual server name already needs to be unique. The FPM setup is also unique on this very same username. Yet the pool.d/*.conf files are named by domain-id and not by username. Why do we have two different unique names for the same thing? This means “ps auxw|grep fpm” shows some, probably unknown, domain-id instead of the much more useful username after the fpm app arguments.

Another example is the files in virtual-server/domains/ themselves. Again, if the username needs to already be unique, why don’t the files match the username?

In short, there is room for improvement, but overall good choices have been made. Thanks for all the great work!

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I must again ( like in the beginning of the thread ) give my two cents here … and emphasis that it is not a testimony to the product itself which seems very complete and robust - but for my own UX ( user experience )

I think that the emphasis should move a bit from the terminology to the essence which is the logic.
After playing a bit with Virtualmin - I came to the conclusion that for me, the logic was what confused me ( and still does) and not only the terminology.

In other systems I used ( and yes - against popular feeling I must cite WHM/CPANEL again … ) there is a very clear logical division as to what each one is for, what you can do with it and most important - WHO. I found that virtualmin lacks this clear division whereas low-level users sometimes need to access webmin / virtaulmin in order to do operations that normally the root admin should not do for them… What I mean is that in the example of WHM - it is only for resellers / root. and Cpanel is only for final clients.

On top of that - also the inner logical division of where to find what is a bit confusing and maybe even lacking. The overall feeling is that I need to open 3, 4,and 10 menu items until I finally find what I need - only to forget it’s location later and then search again.

I feel strongly that in light of current events ( Cpanel pricing madness ) you were actually given a golden opportunity to capitalize on many users that just want a simple migration and find another management system.
You have a great system and a complete robust one - and I feel that just resisting and repeatedly stating " we are not Cpanel and will never be" is a bit missing this opportunity window where there are presumably thousand of customers that are looking for an alternative. Being similar in UX to Cpanel or Directadmin is not a bad thing especially when those products where ( and still are ) somehow market leaders. I think no one is really asking you to use the same logos or the same colors or the same fonts or even the same exact menus. what people want is a similar smooth experience where we know where everything is without even looking for it. I know this is the feeling I had the first time I opened WHM/Cpanel, and also DirectAdmin. It took me no more than 15 minutes to know where to find what I need and to navigate freely and naturally, In webmin I can not say the same.

I read a lot of similar threads here where the term " confusing" repeat itself.

I think what I am trying to say is just that there is a golden opportunity now - if I was the CEO I would take advantage of that, and fast :slight_smile:

Resisting market forces ( and potential clients feedback ) can only go so far. again - you have a great product. why not make it greater ?

p.s.

Also producing some updated dedicated tutorials for Whm/Cpanel refugees regarding migration / similarities / differences or workflows / migrations explanations does not seem like a bad idea.

1 Like
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Uh Being similar in UX to Cpanel or Directadmin is not a bad thing

I don’t understand such opinion, if i want and used to Software and UI as a lot here are used to work with as Virtualmin Webmin is.

Why changing that to be a more look alike ( i also don’t mean colors and such stuff is …pff

I a like to drive a Volvo that looks feel and behavior as a Volvo i’m used to it, i don’t want that that Volvo is becoming Simular to any other car even as those are market leader.

Functions and so on that are extra handy yep, but look and feeling and UX and changing important procedures / names whatever nono . :wink:

You CPANEL guys do try that in DA forum to bad bad guys :wink:

if you like Cpanel why not stay there only paying a litle more. :wink:

My 5 cents.

If i don’t like i don’t use, and use other, if to expensive i take a pot of coffee and doing my best to get to known the budget version i do’nt like better, so i can work with and get used to that one to.
Almost always it is a matter of willing to and some extra time. :wink:

UH YEP there is stil some work todo :wink:

That you , me or other people comming from other Panels and need more time doesn’t mean the panel and interface and UX is bad, only that it is different, and if costing more time than DA then it is probably more different.

People are also different, knowing someone takes more time then knowing someone else, i like that part very very much, one grey silly same world is what BIG company with Monopols are trying, please don’t go with that flow!

OYEA if DA or Virtualmin wanted to be as simular as CP for whatever reason, that isn’t never be a issue for long long time, they have their own Custommer base with their own look and feel and so on.

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@jfro - I think you are missing the whole point.

1 - The problem is not for us ( root admins ) but for the FINAL USER. people express concerns because spending more time to learn might be ok for the admins. but certainly not ok for FINAL USERS which only want a simple way to create a website / mail etc …

2- No one is asking to CHANGE what exists. But instead create a theme that will accommodate other type of ( maybe less advanced ) users.

3- when talking about UX ( not UI ) is more about the smoothness of flow ,and logical division. again- for final users - but yes, also for admins.
somehow it is difficult for me to see how to manage 2k clients with 5-6k domains in virtualmin. but I am willing to be proven wrong…

4 - People are upset and want to move from cPanel not because of the price increase itself - but because of how it was done ( 30-400% increase with only ONE week notice ) and the way the new owners / management is handling things - which probably will kill Cpanel in the near future. ( But I do not want to get into this discussion here )

5 - If I was the only one that finds Virtualmin a bit confusing and intimidating - than OK. But if many other express the same feeling - than maybe there is some valid issue / concern here ?

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If I could take a few moments and try to distill a few points people have been making in hopes to stop this from turning into a big argument.

There is a different between core design philosophy (why you are making a thing and what problems it is trying to solve) and the user experience.
If I were going to try to broadly summarize webmin/virtualmin/usermin’s core design philosophy, I’d say it is a product designed to:

  • Provide a free and open source option for web hosting control and web server administration.
  • Cater to system administrators who do not want to have a control panel dictate how they set up the hosting stack. You should be free to choose the tools you prefer to use and *min should try to work with the services provided and still let you edit service configurations directly should you prefer to do that.
  • Provide admins and users an extensive web-based control panel so that they don’t have to resort to working on the command line if that isn’t something they want to do.
    I’ll bow to longer-time users of *min if you’d like to add some additional points to the list above.
    The user experience, on the other hand is about discoverability. It is about a product working in a logically consistent fashion and that helps new users get up to speed with the product quickly. Every product that has a lot of features has a learning curve, but the UX can make on boarding someone much easier or much harder.

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that the design philosophy is bad or needs to change, they are simply saying that in their opinion there are parts of the user experience itself that could be improved.

When you really get down to it, while there will be people who prefer XX feature works like it does in some other control panel, no one has yet suggested that *min should be scrapped and replaced with a product just like cPanel or Plesk or InterWorx. I think people are simply trying to express that perhaps there’s a way for the product to remain true to its core design philosophy while still helping new users make sense of the product.

For example, if you had a friend who had never used *min before or any other control panel, how exactly would you explain the differences between Webmin, Virtualmin and Usermin to them? As we’ve seen in this thread, even seasoned users disagree exactly how to categorize each product. If the products can’t be clearly and consistently explained, that might mean there is some room for improvement in each product’s focus.

Now imagine that a new user who is not a system administrator signed up for hosting and the server uses *min. Without guidance, if they were just given a set of links to Virtualmin and Usermin without explanation, what do you suppose the end user might assume about those products? What is Usermin for? They might say, reasonably, that Usermin is where they as the end user should go to manage their account. They’d only be partly correct. Some tasks the user will have to manage in Virtualmin and others are best accomplished in Usermin.

I understand that Usermin was originally designed to be a webmail client for users and that it has had other features added onto it over the years, but most users aren’t going to take the time to understand the history of the product. They just want to use it. If the answer to why a feature works or appears the way it does relies on someone explaining the history of the product, that’s probably a fail, because then you’re just talking about technical debt and not good UX.

Can these users eventually learn the product and become proficient? Sure! However, if some things are too frustrating some users will go looking for something else.

As several people have said, the situation with cPanel has provided other control panels with a serious opportunity, and so it’s not a bad idea to consider ways to make potential paying customers feel more at home. That can be done without sacrificing the core design philosophy of *min at all.

Even with constant improvement, is *min going to be the right choice for every user? Never. No one control panel can ever, (or should ever) try to be everything to everyone, but the product can stay true to its goals while helping new users who might well love the design philosophy if they had access to a UX that is a bit friendlier.

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All take more time to teach you users.
As this i quite common.

I don’t say you can’t have other opinions!

You want changes where our User has experiencie with this interface and UX.

I explained with a car, if you change from Fuel to Electric you have to take some time to as Seller to explain a lot and the User have to invest some time to.

I.m More then 30 years in IT, that is normal and common with almost every software change to other vendor ( sometimes even same verndor windows 3.1 , 98, xp, 7, 8, 8,1 and 10 all complaing persons in stead the invest that same time in learning how its works in the other / new situation) , &, only copycats there it is not.

So i don’t say changes are or coul be bad, only that it isn’t needed for the meant is , minor ok, when big it’s up to decide to Virtualmin themselves if they want to do that see the Microsoft windows learnpath where also a lot of people still complaining! ( is it better UX hmm if users where used to xp or 7 arguing is normal about that) ( Oyea windows 10 is better only privacy sucks there)

More or better functionallity if it makes sense yup, where texts are hmm you can make some better yup. though that is a normal software and development path…

Virtualmin is there for years having Custommer Hosters and Endusers Base, they have deserved this with doing a good job, and their Users are used to have it this way, so i don’t say they can do still better. ( everyone can) but don’t have you existing userbase learniing Cpanel UX way where virtualmin isn’t CPANEL)

So i didn’t mixed things as you can read above and did understand you well.

A own opinion is OK, but don’t force that opinion as a lott of you are trying up to the Developers that isn’t a kind way of doing and unpolite even. :wink:

JOKING. :wink:

if Your friend or Endusers have to change Partner ( Wife , Man, IT) they have to learn some to. ( that could be however also exiting)
So is this why not explaing this in a nice marketing way to your Custommers so wow we have now a new control panel so you don’t have to pay that much more CP want from you/us and still you can do your things some even better)

a great challenge even and don’t make things to easy then people make a lot of dangerous even security failures while and that is TRUE user don’t read anymore, if a message popup the klick next next close message and so on.

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@hdaric Couldn’t agree more ( with every word )

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@Jfro

You ARE ( again ) missing the point.

Adding a new theme that is a bit different in logical organization does not mean discarding the old one.

Let me translate it to you in simpler words :

The existing ux / theme / organizational logic will stay for existing users. so no one will take your volvo from you.

A new one will accommodate new users and new customer base. Again - not hurting one bit from what you have now. Not hurting functionality. not hurting UX, not hurting design, Not changing anything.

That way each one person can decide which one they prefer to use.

At the end - IMHO this is a milestone decision and opportunity for the creators of virtualmin. and only they can decide on whats coming - but I believe that an addition ( and not absolute change ) can only benefit everyone.

And I will re-itterate. the problem / challenge is end users . Not me that can get by with a CLI for almost everything…

PS.

BTW - note that this thread started long before the cPanal drama and has little to do with it at all… The ongoing events just intensified the issues and not created them.

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UH why wrong?
There are API’s and docu to make / change theme’s yourself custumized for you Users. ( even template and so on)
So i didn’t mean Theme with that meaning you can have it “almost” as you want it! ( everyone with some knowledge could do that for his/here/it company)

The Meaning of things naming convention as used and so on base workflows that is what i meaning. ( virtiual server and so on, some are here above confusing yep , but doesn’t mena if the choice was to go that way long ago that it is wrong, overtime changing overhaul to have it more as other Control panel users are used to, hmmmm)

Depending on how much time and Developers working on virtualmin other things are more important if “spare” time yup ofcourse new theme or more different templates are interesting.

If you follow read forum for years you can see time is problem, docu isn’t upto date and some other things those are way more important then theme / template everyone can customize while open source and so on!

That is the meanreason i m against such changes while other more important things have to be done first and their time isn’t that much.

So if developers other working for hosters for example could as in DA also code several different theme’s plugins and templates i’m not against that at all!

Don’t understand me wrong for that, the way of naming and working / work flow changing is not OK when the old way has proofen to work also, if really better for they can think about that.

Time of developers from virtualmin they have for what you all asking is “way to little” so others have todo if really needed wanted i expect???

i’m not against driving in other cars then volvo only not want to drive in cars i don’t like as cpanel is for me a good example. :wink:

I don’t use them then, so if you / your users dislike it so much don’t use it, or change the look and feel Theme yourselves.?

Yep i know DA and plesk also! work / have worked with them…

p.s. The topic starter started this as in compare to other PANELS , then later also extra more a lot Cpanel as in some other topics. because of the likers form CPANEL but dislikers what they have to pay for. :wink:

You all can Buy a not full ready cheaper house, an do or have done the look and feel later yourself or pay for third parties, that is possible with virtualmin to, in comparation Virtualmin as cheaper solution then Cpanel, even much more is then possible i believe then the more stricter Cpanel. Tuning and pimp your cars you can with Virtualmin!

I think The Webmin filemanager as it is has started such way to become what it is, so work from supporting members / developers as a example!

If you don’t like as it is, > then try to work together with some of those developers then don’t be shy! :wink:

Stick your heads together and do some coding on against api , themes, templates and plugins, i’m sure if startup going such way Virtualmin developers are happy to support also where they can! :wink:

QuoteFor example, if you had a friend who had never used *min before or any other control panel, how exactly would you explain the differences between Webmin, Virtualmin and Usermin to them? As we’ve seen in this thread, even seasoned users disagree exactly how to categorize each product. If the products can’t be clearly and consistently explained, that might mean there is some room for improvement in each product’s focus.

I already an way more users write this is only DOCU and wiki have to be up to date explaining how it works coudl be enough for that a liite bit of time learning curve isn’t bad.

DOCU / WIKI HOWTO and some other security update impovements are way more important.

Main EXAMPLE the PCI complaint DOCU WIKI is years Behind! https://www.virtualmin.com/documentation/security/pci

I hope you all see my point with the live example above i give you? :wink:

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OYEA you all ( existing / ex Cpanel) can help spare some time to have this ready in more languages to?

https://www.virtualmin.com/documentation/system
Virtualmin for Recovering cPanel Administrators - Tips for users who are familiar with cPanel, but not the underlying webserver terminology. Virtualmin uses Apache terminology for most functionality, and has a few other differences in how it presents options to the end user, which can be confusing for users migrating from cPanel. This guide covers the most common pitfalls and causes of confusion.

leads to :wink:
https://www.virtualmin.com/documentation/system/cpanel for now a 404 page not exists…

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And a websearch you see projects you can give new life for webmin virtualmin themes if you like.

https://theme.winfuture.it/

http://skcript.github.io/better-authentic/

http://www.xenlayer.com/xenlayer-theme.html

And a lot more yup old but are open source as base with the themes from virtualmin themselves you have very much opportunities to code a them with almost in it as you want also the look and feel ux and so on.