# Url links - surely not correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Authentic Theme\ **Created:** [October 14, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052 "2023-10-14T10:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/1 "2023-10-14T10:11:36Z")
| ☹ SYSTEM INFORMATION | | | --- | --- | | OS type and version | Ubuntu Linux 22.04.3 | | Webmin version | 2.101 | | Usermin version | 2.001 | | Virtualmin version | 7.8.2 | | Theme version | 21.08 | | Package updates | All installed packages are up to date | | Box Name | dev | Sorry @Ilia me again. Trivia I know, but perhaps needs attention, a general rule of thumb - accepted norm - if a user hovers over a link / menu item a _help prompt_ is displayed indicating the url that the user will go to if they click on the link/menu item. This is pretty much true throughout Virtualmin. for example go to `Virtualmin -> Server Configuration -> ` and hover over `SSL Certificate` and the _help prompt_ shows `https://domain.com:10000/virtual-server/cert_form.cgi?dom=16890059795199&xnavigation=1` Go to `Virtualmin -> Dashboard` (and I select a another domain from that list - **not the first in the list of course** ) then hover over `Dashboard` menu item The _help prompt_ shows `https://another_domain.com:10000/sysinfo.cgi` This is nothing like where that link actually takes you. If you click on the menu it does take you to the Dashboard. But if you enter the url in the browser one goes to a bad place. It takes one back to Webmin (for a start) and it resets the selected domain to the first in the list. On top of that when you tab to Virtualmin one gets the spinning circle of doom as there seems to be stuff happening. Also if the _help prompt_ was changed to the actual destination `https://another_domain.com:10000/sysinfo.cgi/?xnavigation=1` that is still incorrect as going to that url still takes you on the same journey through Webmin. I think you know what I’m going to say here! why not `https://domain.com:10000/dashboard` or similar `https://domain.com:10000/virtual-server/dashboard.cgi?dom=16890059795199&xnavigation=1` in keeping with all the other _help prompts_? and while I’m on my hobby horse why `?dom=16890059795199` and not `dom=a_real_domain_name` ? I don’t know about everyone else but I find long numbers difficult to remember.☹ Ed: Actually all one needs to do to be dumped is to do a browser refresh (Ctrl + R) → domain forgotten and back to Webmin. Because the system has forgotten where you were. ---
**Author:** ![Ilia](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/ilia/32/10185_2.png) [@Ilia](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Ilia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 11:30am UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/2 "2023-10-14T11:30:38Z")
> [@Stegan](#): > > The _help prompt_ shows What do you mean by help prompt actually? > [@Stegan](#): > > and while I’m on my hobby horse why `?dom=16890059795199` and not `dom=a_real_domain_name` This is how it was initially designed by @Jamie. > Actually all one needs to do to be dumped is to do a browser refresh (Ctrl + R) → domain forgotten and back to Webmin. Because the system has forgotten where you were. If you make full page reload while being on the Dashboard, then yes, the menu switch isn’t remembered. This is quite expected, and would be pretty hard to make it work as you suggest. Moreover, this is absolutely not important in my opinion, because you only need to reload the page when theme is upgraded, i.e. as part of Webmin upgrade. That said, the menu switch is remembered for all other Virtualmin pages, except Dashboard. What’s the big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 1:21pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/3 "2023-10-14T13:21:03Z")
> [@Ilia](#): > > What do you mean by help prompt actually? Alright to try to be more clear. I’m on Windows (and Chrome browser not that the browser makes any difference) and I’m pretty sure it is the same on an Apple machine. If you move the mouse over a _anchor_ link (menu item with a _title_ attribute) or when using a screen reader. You see a small popup at the bottom of the browsed page that displays the “href=” or “title=” content of the link. That is the _help prompt_ to which I am referring. There are long established and accepted rules about this prompt. Some of which that have been expanded W3C (SC 1.413) regarding making them focusable / dismissible / persistent especially for accessibility. ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/4 "2023-10-14T13:36:20Z")
> [@Ilia](#): > > This is how it was initially designed by @Jamie . Perhaps that is something slightly off this topic. I was just using it as an example and the question flashed into my head - why? it seems so easy to design everything with the same principle design rules. why use url path parameterisation `../virtual-server/some.cgi/` for one url and then url query string parameterisation `?dom=some_unmemorable_number&xnavigation=1` for another it is inconsistent even if correct and confusing and meaningless to users. ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/5 "2023-10-14T13:45:54Z")
> [@Ilia](#): > > That said, the menu switch is remembered for all other Virtualmin pages, except Dashboard. Consistency is the 1st rule of design. > [@Ilia](#): > > What’s the big deal? I did say “Trivia”. But I get really annoyed by anything on the internet that doesn’t do what is expected. I think the Dashboard is the first place to go to as it contains almost everything anyone needs to know about the state of things. ---
**Author:** ![Ilia](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/ilia/32/10185_2.png) [@Ilia](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Ilia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/6 "2023-10-14T14:00:19Z")
> [@Stegan](#): > > why use url path parameterisation `../virtual-server/some.cgi/` for one url and then url query string parameterisation > `?dom=some_unmemorable_number&xnavigation=1` > for another it is inconsistent even if correct and confusing and meaningless to users. There is no need to care about domain name in URL. It is possible to change it, although I don’t see any _practical_ value in doing it, as you always have domain name shown in navigation menu. > [@Stegan](#): > > Consistency is the 1st rule of design. I could have a look in making sure that the Virtualmin tab is restored with Dashboard reload. ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/7 "2023-10-14T14:04:24Z")
> [@Ilia](#): > > I could have a look in making sure that the Virtualmin tab is restored with Dashboard reload. Tx. But don’t put it higher up the list than real bug fixes - it is only a design trivia after all - just me. ---
**Author:** ![Ilia](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/ilia/32/10185_2.png) [@Ilia](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Ilia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/8 "2023-10-14T14:26:48Z")
I’ve already fixed it locally. I will need to run more tests though. ---
**Author:** ![Jamie](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/jamie/32/8589_2.png) [@Jamie](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Jamie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/9 "2023-10-14T17:01:24Z")
I intentionally chose to use numeric domain IDs in all links because they never change, whereas domains can be renamed in Virtualmin. ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/10 "2023-10-14T20:49:04Z")
They can but that is a separate process so changing the id number _could_ be included in that process on that page. The numbers (or name) seem to have some importance when they are included in urls yet the number remains meaningless to the observer or someone entering the url. An example would be me providing a novice user with a go to link as help. If that link was clear as in `https://your_domain.com/virtual-server/some.cgi/?dom=your_omain&xnavigation=1` it would do as expected. whereas the link `https://your_domain.com/virtual-server/some.cgi/?dom=1234567890&xnavigation=1` would be a total guess and probably wouldn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![jimr1](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/jimr1/32/14173_2.png) [@jimr1](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/jimr1)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 5:48am UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/11 "2023-10-15T05:48:11Z")
> [@Stegan](#): > > whereas the link `https://your_domain.com/virtual-server/some.cgi/?dom=1234567890&xnavigation=1` would be a total guess and probably wouldn’t work. Oh course it will work as that would be the expected target, you don’t need to guess the domain ID at all you can find it at vmin-\>domain-\>Virtual Server Summary ![image](https://forum.virtualmin.com/uploads/default/original/2X/9/905ee6dc3d18ddfc8db032b9ff11ecec3abba3ba.png) from a coding point of view I find a numeric variable much simpler to work with than a string there a lot less checks to make on a number over a string to make sure its correct. at a bare minimum the following files would have to be renamed to a new id ![image](https://forum.virtualmin.com/uploads/default/original/2X/8/89feee84af3c0d619f2ef1533e96e5ecbe05f307.png) plus I guess loads of references to the domain id contained in other files elsewhere, such as the apache/nginx config files ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:47pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/12 "2023-10-15T12:47:49Z")
> [@jimr1](#): > > Oh course it will work as that would be the expected target, you don’t need to guess the domain ID at all you can find it at vmin-\>domain-\>Virtual Server Summary I am not saying the id as a number cannot be found but could I guess yours or anyone’s if I was providing you or someone else a link to “go to” finding my own id number would also require several more menu selections. → might as well just click on that link as provided. The whole idea of providing a link visible on hover is that it has meaning to the user (otherwise why is it there and in the W3C). > [@jimr1](#): > > from a coding point of view I find a numeric variable much simpler to work with than a string in some languages maybe (in NodeJS my language of choice) strings are pretty much a given throughout. interpreting `../spam/14457205497609/v342.pre` would be split into `path = {"spam", "14457205497609", "v342.pre"}` the number “14457205497609” or string “14457205497609” are just as meaningless to the user. the word “dom” is suggestive of meaning “domain” othewise just save 2 bytes of code (and bandwidth) and just use “d” if the number is just an attempt to obscure the domain then just use a hash. ?x=a13bf, or better still stop using links (GET requests) altogether. But this is post not really about the internal workings or choices made in the code of the site’s GUI. It is about the information (specifically the urls), as they are currently provided, being functional. I do note that there are no url links provided on the main menus eg Virtual Server Summary, or Edit Users → yet they do take you to different pages. That clearly demonstrates intent to show the user. ---
**Author:** ![Ilia](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/ilia/32/10185_2.png) [@Ilia](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Ilia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/13 "2023-10-15T14:54:35Z")
> [@Stegan](#): > > interpreting `../spam/14457205497609/v342.pre` would be split into `path = {"spam", "14457205497609", "v342.pre"}` the number “14457205497609” or string “14457205497609” are just as meaningless to the user This is a data-structure – it is not supposed to have any meaning for the user! User shouldn’t care about the URL and search any meaning there. > [@Ilia](#): > > > [@Stegan](#): > > > > Consistency is the 1st rule of design. > > I could have a look in making sure that the Virtualmin tab is restored with Dashboard reload. The latest theme 21.09 have support for it already. ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/14 "2023-10-15T15:06:57Z")
> [@Ilia](#): > > This is a data-structure – it is not supposed to have any meaning for the user! User shouldn’t care about the URL and search any meaning there. That was a specific response to @jimr1 comment on coding. However, urls are what the web is all about - especially for users. if they are not for users they should be hidden. > [@Ilia](#): > > The latest theme 21.09 have support for it already. Tx again, I’ll update - only using 21.08 at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![apt\_virtualmin](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@apt\_virtualmin](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/apt_virtualmin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/15 "2023-10-16T18:48:30Z")
Not 100% valid anymore, especially on the title attribute. It is useless on all mobile/touch devices so is basically semi-deprecated in all modern design builds. Illa probably already gets nagged endlessly in his build process by missing ally and aria attributes all over the place and that is more applicable here as far as future navigation improvements to the front end is concerned. See more here [https://www.a11yproject.com/posts/creating-valid-and-accessible-links/](https://www.a11yproject.com/posts/creating-valid-and-accessible-links/) ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/16 "2023-10-16T20:39:45Z")
> [@apt\_virtualmin](#): > > Not 100% valid anymore, especially on the title attribute. It is useless on all mobile/touch devices so is basically semi-deprecated in all modern design builds. there are plenty of old folk out there still, at least until we all die out or get put into “homes” who do not use or even have an implanted mobile/touch device. So most “future improvements” gets put in the same waste basket as “just stop oil” and “go vegan, save the planet” clap trap. I’m fine with adding features to accommodate such things but keep the functionality we are all used to because it simply works, as it was originally designed to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ilia](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/ilia/32/10185_2.png) [@Ilia](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Ilia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/17 "2023-10-16T22:04:52Z")
> [@Stegan](#): > > I’m fine with adding features to accommodate such things but keep the functionality we are all used to because it simply works, as it was originally designed to do. Is there something else that isn’t working? > So most “future improvements” gets put in the same waste basket as “just stop oil” and “go vegan, save the planet” clap trap. It’s worth noting that the agriculture process for meat production necessitates a minimum of four times more crops for livestock feed than direct human consumption would. Additionally, animal agriculture is significantly water-intensive. It’s not just an opinion; it’s grounded in research and facts. ---
**Author:** ![jimr1](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/jimr1/32/14173_2.png) [@jimr1](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/jimr1)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 5:12am UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/18 "2023-10-17T05:12:21Z")
> [@Stegan](#): > > I’m fine with adding features to accommodate such things but keep the functionality we are all used to because it simply works, as it was originally designed to do. That is why these urls should not change into something human readable there is no need. but have you hovered over a discord link ? it shows in your ‘help’ popup something like ![image](https://forum.virtualmin.com/uploads/default/original/2X/a/a9c4ff500da35ea560ec5ff9de273742d81b501f.png) where as the human sees that as > [discord.com](http://discord.com) → phporyx → welcome so using numerics in urls is not just a vmin/wmin thing it’s all over the place. I must admit wordpress tends to ‘prettify’ it’s urls into human readable forms for seo purposes > [@apt\_virtualmin](#): > > Not 100% valid anymore, especially on the title attribute. It is useless on all mobile/touch devices so is basically semi-deprecated in all modern design builds. as @apt_virtualmin is most likely heading for depreciation. > [@Stegan](#): > > there are plenty of old folk out there still, I’m well over 70 and do not wish to live in a bygone era of web design … I love to see how it changes over time and incorporate modern ideas into my code ---
**Author:** ![Stegan](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/stegan/32/6860_2.png) [@Stegan](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Stegan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2023, 10:07am UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/20 "2023-10-19T10:07:47Z")
Illia’s 21.09 theme has improved things. and I seem to be living in the past as far as urls and user usability is concerned. No one else cares. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Ilia](https://cdn.forum.virtualmin.com/user_avatar/forum.virtualmin.com/ilia/32/10185_2.png) [@Ilia](https://forum.virtualmin.com/u/Ilia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2023, 6:16pm UTC](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052/21 "2023-10-19T18:16:49Z")
> [@Stegan](#): > > Illia’s 21.09 theme has improved things. Good to hear! Thanks for the heads up! [Next page](https://forum.virtualmin.com/t/url-links-surely-not-correct/123052.md?page=2)