@Jfro man, they are working very hard to implement just what you’re talking about - please give it time. As you can see they are trying hard to improve, for example this forums, @Joe spend years to cleaning up and make it ready for something up 2 date… its open source and things happening fast on virtualmin side, that’s why other things like this are a bit slower but not too slow… I feel your frustration and things are changing…
ONE couldn't have professional PATCH / BUG / Security management with the tools Virtualmin is giving
@unborn and also Virtualmin guys.
I see progression, and understand manpower / time problem.
With BUGs / security and all kind off updates the DOCU / changelogs should be complete as possible to be kind of “complaint” for companys that are doing active patch / bug / security management.
So i hope to be clear that such text as :
and a bunch of other bugfixes and small improvements
is not enough?
If time is a problem this idea could save virtualmin guys some (support , docu) time in future i think?
So if short / “drafts” for working solutions / howto are extracted out of forum / issue posts, then maybe also other people could help with expanding those knowledge that is allready written somewhere to WIKI / HOWTO docs.
( if then questions arise that are allready answered , it is much more easy to link to and find them ( not typing all those extra texts anymore because this is already in forum) , also now with new forum before posting one could easier search for solutions in this forum)
Also If solved / solution then those textparts should become a clear color that such is "official "solution for a problem x. ? ( do the mark in solution is nice …)
There is a mailing list for update announcements. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/virtualmin-announce
We’re doing the best we can. We all have other jobs (selling free software is a stupidly hard business), and Virtualmin is mostly volunteer labor, so we’re doing the best we can with very limited resources. I would like i if we had more resources for all of this, but I haven’t been able to figure out how to convince enough people to pay for the software to employ anybody to do it.
We’re trying once again to make the billing/support experience nice, and to improve processes so that it takes less of our time to provide a better experience by rebuilding our website with new tools (fifth time’s the charm, right?)…maybe it’ll work out this time and we’ll start selling enough software to keep the lights on and maybe have enough for one or two full-time people. We’re not going anywhere (we’ve been at it for 20+ years, after all), but we’re also working with a reality of extremely limited resources. It’s a tough business, and I haven’t been able to make it work as a full-time job, despite trying for 15 years.
Wow Joe, I am quite surprised to read that.
If after 15 years. It’s still not supporting you, Erik and Jamie, something drastic needs to he done.
In this day and age, business must either grow or die…stagnation is death. Who will continue once you three are done?
Might I suggest that one issue I see is the seemingly separate webmin, virtualmin, Usermin philosophy…I think that has to change.
Next, the system is too complicated, so those of us hosts who use it can’t get our own clients to learn the ropes…they prefer cpanel because it’s way easier for them to use.
Finally, sometimes I think a leap of faith is required. Invest some money into a few full timers for marketing and interface design (get someone from the outside not already stained by the product…I don’t mean that in a bad way)
The only drastic change that would move the needle enough to make this a business rather than a hobby would be to change the licensing (reducing the capabilities of the free version and ramping up the price for the Pro version). Which is something we don’t want to do (though we probably will increase the price once the new billing system goes online, for reasons that we’ll talk about later).
“invest some money”…What money do you think we have to invest? Investors don’t invest in something that has never turned a profit in 15 years, and we aren’t independently wealthy. There is no money to invest. We can, and do, invest time whenever we can (whenever our other work permits). If you’re an accredited investor and you want to invest get at me. (But, we’re not actively fundraising and have no plans to try to fundraise. I’ve been involved in startups for a long time. This is not a business that will inspire investors.)
And, we made a leap of faith 15 years ago when we started the company. It didn’t really work out. That’s been true for a long time, and we’ve all had to have other income for years (some years have been better than others and sometimes I was only doing occasional contracts to make ends meet); but, I think because Virtualmin is pretty popular (probably the ~4th most popular control panel, based on numbers I’ve been able to glean, and Webmin has more installs than any of them) there is an assumption that we’re also selling a lot of software and making a lot of money. Again, selling free software is a tough business…probably not do-able for most categories of software (for every OSS business success one can name, there are at least ten failures).
Again, we’re not going anywhere; you can count on Webmin and all of its sub-projects being around for years to come (Jamie and I are still young-ish and healthy with probably 20 years 'til we start thinking about retirement). Ilia is a decade younger. But, I wanted to be clear about this being a mostly volunteer-driven project, not a big corporate thing. It’s frustrating to constantly be told we’re not doing enough. Believe me, I’d love to have more time, more money, more help. But, we work with what we have.
We are potentially hiring some additional support help, but the money for that is coming from pay cuts to me (dropping from “almost nothing” to “actually nothing”) and Eric (reduced by a significant amount), and will hopefully be a temporary situation that having more time for development and documentation will alleviate by resulting in more sales.
And, we already invested in interface design! Ilia has been as close to full-time as we’ve been able to afford for years. Have you seen what it looked like before Authentic? Yes, it’s still too complicated. That’s a problem…we painted ourselves into a corner by saying “yes” to every feature request for years and years, and now whenever we remove or simplify anything (even ridiculous stuff like QMail-related mail features that haven’t been maintained upstream for a decade) we catch holy hell for it. We have the most flexible control panel on the market, which means most people are absolutely terrified of it, because it has too many options, and it is just too confusing for non-technical users.
Next major version actually will simplify quite a bit, and it will inevitably anger quite a few people because of it, but simplifying will reduce the technical debt of maintaining it all, and will have the pleasant side effect of reducing time spent on support. It’ll probably even make some users happier (the ones who just need a solid, easy-to-use, control panel and don’t care about the minutia of how things are done).
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Hi @Joe and all.
Yup simplify IT… and succes whised! 
I only hope you can give a kind off roadmap upfront?
While as i startet this thread , mean reason is lacking off enough uptodate DOCU and information about changes.
For planning and future, for example hosting company’s nead to know which path the CP they are offering is on.
So most important question and example here i guess: ( to have some “long term” planning for all who use CP Virtualmin / Webmin)
WHICH OS and versions are going to be supported if SIMPLIFied.?
And yes or no still possible to have other REPO / PACKAGES supported by them/ourselves in virtualmin other the the OS …?
I have only 2 small / very small running 1 test only and one for not so important project few sites, with other repos.
What i’m posting is my time investment sharing with forum users here.
Experience with both vps/instances is the reasing of this topic started by me.
Can’t help myself with DOCU because of bad grammar. sometimes however pointing some to links or what is missing.
OK good practical found example of my “complaints” about docu and info’s:
@Joe you started a topic about DEBIAN 8 support here Debian 8 no longer supported in the installer (but updates will continue until June)
BUT you also mentioned CENTOS 6,7,8 in topic normally CENTOS guys if doing quick overview do not read. So clear roadmaps FOR OS and versions needed , then you save time in answering questions.
( and yup roadmaps are only roadmaps , so if time windows are not reached, only post this info there to be transparant and clear in one place for OS / versions , then you save yourself time)
firstly, i am a proud user of Virtualmin gpl and Virtualmin pro. I like the system even with its complexities. Perhaps one reason why i like it so much is that a very small group of developers are on the “workshop floor” and also contactable for support. That gives Virtualmin a fabulously personalised experience that is something really lacking in this day and age. Obviously it also stretches resources thin and i recognise that.
In terms of turning it into a profit making enterprise, I am not so sure that this cannot be done whilst still keeping the “Open Source” philosophy. Lets look at a couple of examples where i feel (and correct me if i have this wrong) that this philosophy is both strong and making a good profit.
- Wordpress
- Joomla
Is it possible that perhaps Virtualmin users and also the team could come up with some strategies to help facilitate a little more income for you guys without detracting from the GPL version?
Ideas
- ISPConfig offers a really extensive manual that users can pay for
- Perhaps offer training workshops or even subscriptions to webcasts that users pay for?
To come back to what i originally said earlier about complexity though…whilst i agree that one of the big issues is the absolutely garbage “its not secure because its free and open source” rank that most professionals who use cpanel and plesk throw at you guys, Virtualmin for me has consistently ranked as the number 3 mentioned control panel and top one for open source on just about any forum where the question “which control panel should i use” gets asked! So its got a heck of a big reputation world wide…surely that means something?
In saying the above, I can honestly say, one of the significant complaints I have heard (and its just my experience which is limited by comparison to others), the Virtualmin interface is not good.
Look I am a former high school teacher with major in Industrial Technology and minor in Design. I do not consider myself a professional in either of the two areas btw…i have spent the last 15 years running an earthmoving business and now renovating/home improvements and dabbling heavily in Webhosting and Websites.
Consistently in my limited business life, I have found that my customers always want one thing…“a bowling green finish”, and its not related to how much they pay for it either. A client paying $5 per hour unconsciously still demands the same level of quality as the person paying $50 per hour (even though outwardly they say differently).
So, even though Virtualmin is relatively cheap/free, if the interface isnt a bowling green finish, in my experience, people will go elsewhere (and pay a lot more for the competitor)! I dont think that reorganising the interface is something that is expensive to do…it just needs rationalising in a way that makes sense (I have been using it for a few years now and i still cant follow the logic and im quite sure i am not the only one thinking that)
Perhaps what is needed is some forum input on how menus should be organised?
Perhaps we could create a forum thread dedicated to this…ie to create interactive Adobe CC templates that show different menu layouts?
@adamjedgar are you using ubuntu on your servers? - just asking not making any judgment, I did have pro version offered however I was too slow and within one year I could not migrated as all my sites worked… I am thinking about ask virtualmin folks to give me 2 or 3 domains without any additions , except those withing glp version to test it on my kvm but not yet. I do not really understand what you are saying here… you need home button ot issues button here on forums or what you need? I think forums here are best organised as possible - if you look at old forums, that was utterly rubbish (sorry virtmin folks but it was) - what is adobe cc on world? - who needs adobe today? been without that company for about 14 years as most of us here… I think you used those old forums format which is now in pass. This new forums works fast and as new post review it works, fast and deadly - regards the changes on menu in cp panel - I think you should open separate issue on that 
@Jfro just my 2 cents to this topic - well they working on new documentation about all of this issues… it would be sorted soon somehow in future I guess… just give them some times… it only 3 of them for all of those things - thanks.
I am saying Joe needs to take a leap of faith and really look hard at the Virtualmin interface (nothing to do with forums)
Unless the interface changes to something that makes logical sense, virtualmin cannot be a big profit making entity…its that simple and there is no rocket science involved. People expect a bowling green finish even if its for free. But if its crap and its free, they certainly wont pay money for it.
One of the big complaints by outsiders re virtualmin…the interface is not logical, too hard to work with, and complicated!
It is neither ergonomic nor aesthetic!
When i compare Virtualmin with Centos-web Panel, CWP attracts a lot of users because it looks beautiful. Those guys have gone way above and beyond in presenting a book of pretty pictures. In truth however, users of CWP are completely suckered into a ridiculously crappy panel that is actually barely functioning properly. Most stuff on it doesnt work properly and is full of programming errors. Their update methods are complete shambles, and the right hand hasnt a clue what the left is doing…Centos-web Panel is a complete joke! But, the consumer still goes for CWP because it has the bowling green finish. Its not until they are suckered in they realise their mistake…then they get the shits, blame it on open source (also including Virtualmin in the “its a shitty panel” department), and go for Cpanel!
Whilst, Virtualmin has all of this under control…the guys are doing a wonderful job in providing a very stable, secure, and reliable panel… it suffers against plesk and cpanel anyway. They just need to work hard on the interface and it could be a real winner! (thats my belief)
wait and see.
I think they got the message , makes no sense to discuss here to lng, spending to much time they can use for…
Important to old stuff need updates. ( dovecot postfix a lot of more possible in the config files then in GUI)
Security settings up to date ciphers, encryption all the way should be easy to implement. ( doing it for users in GUI i mean , and or updated DOCS for those )
DOCS / WIKI’s .
Interface hmm when they are on that way then yup, all in one with above newer up to date docu’s save time.
When interface and co layout isn’t in roadmap for next say 1 year then better have the other things solved ASAP , also docu / wiki.
I understand all of that cost time , so don’t BURNOUT 
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@adamjedgar well I would disagree somewhat with you… current virtualmin gui gave me an freedom to set anything and everything regards server… it giving me the freedom to do anything there… I understand that for some people could be over thingy but if it is, they should not try to run servers on their own do they? I even liked back in a days light blue default theme… yet latest theme did enabled me to work from tablets and mobiles and it did simplified virtualmin overly a lot ! I would not like the more simplified interface otherwise the power would disappear from virtualmin as an control panel also would leave believes of freedom somewhere in dust.
BTW just my side I would say virtualmin folks works bloody hard, I don’t think so they have to work even harder. I think in current stage they could just improve the security and documentation perhaps some new autoinstall scripts or whatever else need the focus, I think how virtualmin works right now is best to compare quality of code, options it is giving you with robust stability. I do not want virtualmin to become another limited and pretty much useless cpanel shit… because most of the people use it, not because it is easy but because they did not have a choice to choose from in a first place…
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it sounds to me like someone from windows came to linux and said oh this is complicated very much lets make it like windows. - well my gramma would have ww3 with you if you even try to show up with anything windows based… shes been on linux for past 6 years and she wouldnt go back for whatever costs and she is bloody old as well. I show her how to use it about uhm - yeaaah 10 times but then she get it on with it and now she is happy old gitt
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those are my two cents to this…
OH:
I did have some (old) plesk experience there it was hard to do some own things not in the “box”
So CVE important update centos / apache then much to late plesk, i did things manual yup worked, but after that uhum…
DA you can do a lot of custom things.
Virtualmin , Webmin you can do / use a lot of extra ( not supported) things, that is for me reason to try / test webmin / virtualmin.
If it is going to become a strict (alsmost only possible GUI) apllication then this could make some fancy liking users happy but , the total use cases where virtualmin / webmin fits wil decrease in numbers.
TECH first , then GUI User experience , if both same time ok, but then you need more workpower horses i guess… again don’t BURNOUT!
@adamjedgar you gave a good example where Users / admins have a lot.t of sh.t with the other way around.
OH many people like icons, i don’t , normally you need for administration task bigger screens then mobile ( If mobile administration tasks it should be for urgent mathers , and short overviews only) , with menu structure’s it is way more easy then click click click … much icons ( and have to remember which) to reach in the end the Category you need) ( and editing config files , i like to use big screen and big normal keyboards , making mistakes overlooking them is with small ones to… , my key’s are 1 INCH each haha. joking )
@Jfro ah i did not meant like this… in vitrualmin you can give ordinary users (your clients) fairly easy gui - in fact easier then plesk thingy… I do remember plesk myself and I left after one day of trial… it was s10xo - shit - that is the fact you don’t even use that crap ware as well right ya? I was speaking as admin to admin… sorry for misunderstanding 
@Unborn sorry my reply was mainly at ADAm… i mean as admin yup , user GUI see my next reply hihi maybe sometime
@Jfro well finally this forums uses @ user name highlights this forum is fanatically fantastic, dont you think so? - ok shoot some reply, the more we discuss the more I would understand and be able to look at the issue from your , perhaps different view, which makes me more better person.
to react to your edit, sure thing man! everyone is different and everyone likes something else… I understand and I think anyone will understand this, hey at least the option is there… for you and for others 
believe me I am one of those linux generations who use terminal for everything even to start up mu gnome DE…
…its the option is there - do you feel it, how it sounds? ah fresh air - this is what I mean by freedom - let the bulls eye breath out and let the fresh air to circulate
I do remember windows 3.1 and then 3.11 - hence I do have no fukcing clue what dos was running on as I was 7 years old but I do know how to works with those 
- dont ask me… yes… @joe was not happy with php running on server and that was only for pure output for search form however I did wrote another script - just pure bash, nothing else, it will scan folder with documentation files.md and generate usable search form for all those files based on names and its fast as well, since there is no need for any server usage, as everything happens in browser without cookies - well let me to propose them this… its also tracked by git so you know… usual staff, however focus should be first to make everything usable as you all want and then - perhaps then we could collaborate all to make docs better? I have very simplified docs how to achieve the things for virtualmin gpl - in a fact it should be paid of
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Yea like the new forum too.
But also like DOS 2.xx command line…
( the battle Peter Norton <> Billy Gates ) 
I did start a topic here somewhere to have official replys solutions ( also older out of support isseues) out of forum in a kind scratch wiki / howto upfront before then someone could rewrite those to better documentation. ( so for the good with Grammar voluntiers here a starting point to help out)
Started in DOS 2x world, OS2 MICROSOFT and IBM, Windows Server 3.5x , NETWARE … , LINUX much later but still liking “conf” files editing with a command line there such should be possible always i hope .
The DA custom options i like, here at virtualmin you can have some custom templating , but custom update proof config files changes are somewhat harder to handle that is why i read here and do updates later on… or test them first on a test instance if time…
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that is actually not bad idea - speaking as sort of admin freak here…
Edit: acutally @Jfro I believe there should be git repo for documentation, just .md files so we could clone those edit those also give hand to solve some stuff to virtualmin folks and they should be only one who could merge those docs otherwise you can use it by yourself or share it with your clients/friends/mother… but this have its own times…
Yup your idea is also good, but lets wait, for Joe and … how they are going to evolve their DOCU / WIKI then if needed a extra.
For now i only have kind of docu for changes / probs / solutions myself in scratch way to solve some of the things as ciphers, perl install prob, python versions, dkim, spam, abuse, encryption, certs, http2 with centos7 (https://codeit.guru/en_US/) phpfpm remi, sftp, external dns, ipv6 , dmarc, spf.
Such things i didn’t find (or only very hard to find) with Virtualmin / Webmin Docu.